Introduction
In this episode of Higgs LLP in conversation with, Partner James Modley speaks with Higgs LLP in conversation with Rani Wynn, General Counsel, Livescore Group.
Rani shares her journey from private practice to in-house legal leadership, emphasising the importance of relationship-building, leadership, and personal values in achieving success.
Transcript
Please note this transcript is an automatically generated summary and may contain inaccuracies.
Introducing Rani Wynn
Thanks for joining us, and welcome to Higgs in Conversation With. This podcast is designed to dive into the minds of some of the most successful individuals who are in senior positions within leading businesses in the UK, and aims to provide a peek into their life, both personally and professionally.
My name is James Modley, and I will be your host. I’m a partner in the Commercial Dispute Resolution Team at Higgs LLP.
I’m really excited to introduce, on this sunny day, Rani Wynn, General Counsel of LiveScore Group. LiveScore Group comprises world-class media and betting brands: LiveScore, LiveScore Bet and Virgin Bet. Through these brands, LiveScore Group is a fully owned and operated ecosystem that converges the two worlds of sports media and sports betting. It is designed to enhance the experience of sports fans all over the world, and we’ll learn more in due course through Rani. Rani, welcome. I’m really looking forward to chatting with you today, and thank you for joining me.
James Modley:
We’re going to go in some weird and wonderful places, and I’m really looking forward to your answers, because I know from speaking to you before that this is going to be a really special episode for the listeners. To start us off, tell us a little bit about you, your job role, what you do on a daily basis, and a little bit more about LiveScore.
Rani Wynn:
As you mentioned, I’m General Counsel at LiveScore Group. We’re a global business. We have a sports media B2C product, which is global, and in specific jurisdictions we also have online sports betting and gaming products, also B2C.
Who am I and how did I get here? We’d probably need a little while, but I’m Australian. I emigrated to the UK 12 years ago, I think 12 or 13, and since moving here I’ve always worked in-house. I came from private practice. I was an associate in Australia at a law firm that specialised in media law, and ever since I’ve been in the UK I’ve worked in-house in media and sport.
A typical day
James Modley:
What does a typical day look like at LiveScore?
Rani Wynn:
I don’t think there is a typical day. The clue is in the title, right? General Counsel means you can do anything on any given day, and because we’re a global business, we’re very fast-paced. It’s a highly regulated environment in terms of both media and gambling, so no two days look the same.
If I think about all the experiences I’ve had within this organisation over the last seven or eight years, so many have been unique. My day can involve commercial contracts, transactional work, employment work, lots of regulatory work, lots of B2C consumer law issues, a lot of management because of the team and the role that I have in terms of managing people, and a lot of strategy work at executive level. I’m based in London HQ, and we’ve got about five offices around the world.
James Modley:
You’ve touched on a couple of bits that I want to come back and unpick a little bit. I’m always interested in how people move into in-house roles. What attracted you?
Moving in-house
Rani Wynn:
I was working on a big litigation in Australia before I moved here, early in my career. It was a really big white-collar crime matter, quite unique because everything else I’d worked on was in the media and sports space. At the end of that litigation, I was burnt out and my partner said I needed a break from the firm and should go on secondment.
He arranged my secondment into Unilever Australia, at the headquarters in Sydney, for about six months. That was probably what changed it for me. I went back to the firm afterwards for another year or so, but I recognised how integrated the legal team was with the business, the strategy and the people who were queuing up at your desk to solve live consumer issues there and then. I really felt part of it, and I think of myself as a business lawyer. Now, in fact, I think of myself as a business person. That’s probably what struck the match.
When I went back to my firm, my partner said, “You’re going to be general counsel somewhere someday. Trust me, you’re going in-house. The firm partnership is not your path.” I dismissed it at the time, but he was right.
Legal as a business partner
James Modley:
That’s something I want to explore with you. In-house lawyers sometimes have the reputation of being the “no brigade”, but you were talking about advising the business and helping it move forward, making educated decisions about risk and reward. Just talk to me a little bit about your interaction with the decision-makers within the business, the C-suite, and how you help shape the direction of travel.
Rani Wynn:
It’s so critical for in-house legal teams not to be seen as the cork in the bottle, or the “no brigade”. Often, we just highlight issues that are very present and no one has voiced before, so when they are voiced, they can be seen negatively. But if you want your legal team to work hand in hand with the business, trust and relationship-building are crucial from the start.
In my current organisation, I’m in the C-suite, so I’m not the only decision-maker, but I am a decision-maker in terms of strategic direction. We have many decisions made elsewhere in the business, and we have operating companies all over the world. For certain jurisdictions, decisions have to be made in country, and we have a large organisational structure around that. But in terms of overall strategy, vision and mission, I do have a seat at that table, so I can participate in conversations about where we’re going and what we think is important.
Even if you don’t have that C-suite seat, your value should still be highly regarded as the internal lawyer or business lawyer within any organisation. I don’t think I’ve earned that seat based only on my legal skills. It has also been my business skills, which brings me back to that feeling that I’m a business person as much as I’m a lawyer.
Team structure
James Modley:
How is your team set up, and how does it operate on a day-to-day basis?
Rani Wynn:
I lead the legal team, but that also includes our compliance team and our procurement team. In terms of compliance, I have data protection and marketing compliance, including B2C consumer compliance. I also have procurement, which is a bit unusual, but it works for us.
The procurement team has a very close relationship with finance and other operational departments, so there are dotted lines, if you like. My team is made up of lawyers, compliance professionals and procurement professionals.
Optimal performance
James Modley:
You’ve already answered what a typical day looks like. I’m interested in something else now. You are part of a global powerhouse of a business that is high-performing and pushing its boundaries to become the best it can be. What do you class as optimal performance?
Rani Wynn:
I think it would be difficult to say that I was performing at my optimum if I thought the company wasn’t also achieving that in terms of its own growth trajectory and strategic goals. From that perspective, it goes hand in hand.
We are doing brilliantly globally in terms of our growth, and it’s been a real graft since we started. I’m very proud of where we’ve got to in my tenure. From my perspective, what does success look like personally in this role? It’s if people trust me, if they rely on my advice and follow through on it, and if it takes us forward into the next negotiation or decision.
Having a seat at the table is a sign of success strategically and in a governance sense. There are lots of small signs of success, and sometimes you don’t recognise them until you stop and take stock.
Personal values
James Modley:
Success is different for everyone because people have their own perception of what it looks like. I think that comes down to values as well.
Rani Wynn:
I think success is personal because what my values are, and what I think is most important in the way I live my life, will be different from the next person. I feel successful when I’m living out my personal values in a way that makes me feel good.
Some people may value family time more, or leisure activities, or something else entirely. Understanding yourself and what success means to you personally helps you decide whether you’ve achieved it or not.
James Modley:
I’m definitely going to pick up with you on the values piece, because that’s something I’ve only just started looking at and exploring.
Non-negotiables for success
James Modley:
Instead of asking for three non-negotiables for success, I’m going to make it four, because coffee is clearly one of them. So, number one is coffee in the morning.
Rani Wynn:
Definitely coffee. I do not operate without caffeine. I’ve stopped myself now, though; I don’t drink caffeine after 12 noon.
For me, the three non-negotiables are feeling content, feeling satisfied, and feeling good about myself and the job I’ve done when I close the door on the day. That links to personal pride. I’m proud of where I’ve got to in my career, and so much of who I am is interlinked with what I do.
The third piece is that success is also measured in benefits, remuneration, nice holidays and nice things to look after the family. That’s a representation of my achievements and commitment over the years.
James Modley:
Where have those values come from?
Rani Wynn:
Mostly from within myself. I’ve done a lot of work over the years, including coaching and therapy, working out who I am, what is meaningful to me, what is important to me in my career and day-to-day life, and how I show up.
A lot of that has probably come from family. We straddled the line between working class and middle class, but certainly we were very hard workers. You really had to work hard to earn what you earned. My parents were borderline workaholics, and that was instilled in me from very early on. Success for my family also looked like having nice holidays and things like that, and that’s translated into what I value as well.
Lessons learned
James Modley:
As your journey has progressed, what has been the most valuable lesson you’ve learned?
Rani Wynn:
I think one of the most valuable lessons is that everything is solvable. Every problem has a solution. You may not like the solution, and it may be difficult or take you down a challenging path, but you can solve it.
That’s a great tool as a litigator because litigation is fast-paced and you have to make decisions under pressure. Sometimes things go wrong, but understanding that no matter what happens, we can solve it is invaluable.
The other lesson is that a lot of things in your career will be luck. There will be sliding doors moments. I don’t mean your whole career is luck, because that’s not true, but I do think every career has an element of luck. If I think about the Unilever secondment, or deciding to move to the UK, or taking a job at Sky, all of those things were turning points that accelerated things for me.
Sliding doors moments
James Modley:
I absolutely agree. One of my own sliding doors moments happened in a lift. I was training at the time and a partner I really wanted to work for happened to be in the lift with me. I spoke to her, and that ultimately helped me become a solicitor at that firm. That was a sliding doors moment.
Rani Wynn:
Exactly. You have to grasp the opportunity with both hands when it appears. You also have to put yourself in the situation to make the most of it. The stronger your network, the more likely those moments are to happen. Nothing comes easy, but hard work, sacrifice and dedication matter.
You also have to force yourself to be uncomfortable sometimes. I’ve said before that I’d happily hide in the toilet at a conference to avoid talking to people, even though I come across as extroverted. Sometimes you have to force yourself into those conversations, but you never know where they will lead.
Mistakes and reflection
James Modley:
Are mistakes good or bad? There’s a misconception that general counsel or law firm partners never make mistakes, which is fundamentally wrong in my view.
Rani Wynn:
Mistakes are both critical and inevitable. Making mistakes is a critical part of development, as long as you figure out how to solve them and own up to them. I’ve worked with lawyers who find it really difficult to admit mistakes, and I find that affronting.
If I make a mistake, I tell my team. It’s better to be transparent and honest, because that builds trust. If they see that I can admit I made an error, then they can admit that to me too. Trustworthiness is called into question if someone does everything possible to cover a mistake up.
I still cringe about mistakes I made 10 years ago, but none of them have had any real career impact. Of course, you don’t want to put anyone at commercial risk, but I’ve learned not to repeat those mistakes.
Managing people
James Modley:
Where do you think people make the most mistakes?
Rani Wynn:
It’s not usually legal advice or risk analysis. It’s the human side of business. Managing people is really difficult, and it’s a huge part of my role. That’s where you can make mistakes, because the human element comes into it and no two reports are the same. You have to make sure you’re working with individuals on their own paths.
That is also where communication matters. Communication is simple in theory but hard to get right. We sometimes assume people know something, or an email is written one way but perceived another. What I try to do is make time for my team and let them know that when they’re in the eye of the storm, we’ve all been there. It’s uncomfortable, but it’s part of the process.
Leading a team
James Modley:
If I asked you for the secret sauce to making your team as successful as possible, what would it be?
Rani Wynn:
You really have to care about your team. If you’re someone who doesn’t really like leading teams or managing people, you should try to engineer your role to avoid it. It is both a huge privilege and a huge burden to manage teams.
It’s a skill you can learn, but the number one thing you need as a people manager is to be invested in your team. A huge part of my day is managing my team, and that takes me away from the strategic stuff and the day-to-day lawyering. But it’s a huge investment, and it matters.
You don’t have to be an empath, but you do have to care about individuals. If people see that you care about them, they are much more willing to perform for you. You might not be able to give them a huge salary increase, but they know they’re trusted with great work and that you’re going into bat for them in rooms where they are not present.
People and relationships
James Modley:
Our people are everything to us too. If we get the internal piece right, clients have a better experience because everyone is pulling in the same direction.
Rani Wynn:
Absolutely. Relationships are fundamental. The technical expertise should be a given, but the relationship piece is what really matters. People buy from people. If you don’t enjoy working with someone, it’s not a good relationship, and you’ve got better things to do than struggle through it.
Relationships are built gradually. It’s a trust process and a value process: do you align? That is fundamental across all of the people I’ve spoken to and worked with. Enjoy what you do, work with the people you want to work with, and when you do not enjoy it, that is fine too. But you still need professional respect and have to work on earning it.
James Modley:
Do you think leaders are born or self-taught?
Rani Wynn:
I think you can be either. I was always held up as a natural leader, probably because I was bossy when I was younger and had older brothers, so I had to pull my weight and get them to do what I wanted them to do. I gravitated to leadership roles through sport and work, and that probably came naturally to me.
But I’ve also known introverted leaders who probably weren’t thought of as natural leaders at school, but who evolved into them and taught themselves the skills. You can teach yourself any skill.
One thing that is critical is delegation. If you can’t delegate effectively, you’re not really a good leader. You have to bring up people you trust and ensure work is done well without having to constantly check everything.
James Modley:
If I asked one of your team what Rani’s leadership style is, what would they say?
Rani Wynn:
We’ve done Insights Discovery as a team, so we understand each other better and how people like to be communicated with. I’m strongly in fiery red and sunshine yellow, so I’m a bit of a mix. One friend describes me as stern but soft.
I’m direct and honest. I’ll tell you exactly how I think, whether or not you can see it on my face. But I’m also cheerful and always trying to crack jokes. I like to make light of things because we’re only on this earth for a short time. Let’s not be too gloomy. Let’s enjoy our time together.
Inspiration
James Modley:
Who or what inspires you?
Rani Wynn:
My biggest inspirations are probably my girlfriends. I have so many amazing, successful women in my life who have worked on themselves to be their best version, and they’re successful in so many different ways. They also make time to be wonderful friends and, if they have families, amazing mums and partners.
I do think my girlfriends might be the true loves of my life because I am inspired by them all the time. When I think of my inspirations, it’s really the company I keep.
Greatest achievement
James Modley:
What has been your greatest achievement?
Rani Wynn:
It’s my current team. They are so well respected across our business. I’m incredibly proud of the work they do, how we work together, how we solve issues, and the compliments I receive about them.
It’s not just that they’re great people, but the way we service the organisation, our approach to legal problem-solving, and our commercial pragmatism. If I’ve played a part in developing that team and fostering that culture, then I’m incredibly proud of that.
Bridging legal and business
James Modley:
How do you bridge the gap between making decisions from a legal perspective and getting the company to follow them from a business perspective?
Rani Wynn:
Relationship-building is the number one thing. If the business stakeholder does not trust you or respect your opinion, they will not come on the journey. I’ve seen other lawyers not have their opinions respected because they haven’t built those relationships, or perhaps they’ve made repeated mistakes and trust has been eroded.
You need strong relationships, strong expertise and professional respect. Within a business, it is all about personal relationships in my view. Marketers often want to push the envelope and take risks, while legal people are more naturally risk-averse and methodical. Those personalities may not naturally mesh, so both sides have to work at the relationship so that legal can guide the business in a way that is good for everyone.
This information is for guidance purposes only and does not constitute legal advice. We recommend you seek legal advice before acting on any information given.
